Pre-Tolkien

[00:00] So we also this week we've got an under Google for you
[00:05] Coalson, what are we gonna be making up stuff for this week?
[00:17] Under Google rules that was the playa super excited told us we had to
[00:24] So we signed up for it in the end it's gonna be better and more true than Google can give you
[00:33] So
[00:35] By the time you hear this it will be nearly Christmas for those that celebrate Christmas and
[00:41] It's still Christmas
[00:43] Yeah, okay, even if you're trying to ignore it you can't because it's everywhere day on the calendar
[00:50] It is all pervasive and I was thinking about this
[00:55] Most of our traditions don't make any sense
[00:58] But the thing that seemed just super weird to me is
[01:02] why elves
[01:04] Why does Santa have elves?
[01:09] Mmm
[01:12] So you mentioned the druid winter solstice and we know that yeah all that stuff is connected but like our
[01:18] elves like druid characters, I don't think they are I
[01:22] Know I feel like this goes to like or comes from like the Nordic
[01:27] Regions or something at that like is this a holdover from Norse mythology or something like that
[01:32] did where there were there the elves and
[01:35] In Norse stuff
[01:37] See that doesn't sound familiar to me
[01:40] Okay, I mean maybe I mean did anybody besides Tolkien really have elves and their official
[01:50] state sanctioned mythologies
[01:52] Mm-hmm. Hmm. Oh, so Joey's so and you Joey is saying yes for sure there were no
[01:57] I'm just kind of a grim. No, I'm agreeing with the Harper's question. Okay, it was weird like where did else come from in general?
[02:03] I I feel like elves are kind of a ubiquitous
[02:07] maybe not ubiquitous, but
[02:10] Yeah, maybe
[02:13] Much more common right in
[02:16] Different so feats Tolkien didn't come up with elves or goblins or dwarves
[02:22] He just put them in a world, right? They those already existed. He might have come up with hobbits, but the rest of them already existed
[02:29] well, but were elves always like in Tolkien's world elves are like
[02:34] Six foot tall Adonis's Santa Claus elves are like
[02:38] Three really helper monkeys
[02:41] With the ears of a six foot Adonis. That's
[02:46] Yeah, and why why does Spock have elf ears that's another
[02:54] Yeah
[02:56] We got to get 23 and me on this there's some evolutionary, okay, so so let's go with your idea then
[03:03] Jason that that elves are Nordic. Does that?
[03:07] How do we connect that to Santa?
[03:10] even if it's you know, well, I mean I feel like yeah, I don't know maybe there's some crossover and
[03:20] You know, maybe there was elven
[03:27] Activities
[03:28] associated with the winter holidays or something like that in
[03:33] In the Nordic world or something. I have no idea. Okay, I guess I'm not even sure so Santa Claus is like kind of a different
[03:42] dude in Europe anyway
[03:44] Right, this is true. Do the other Santa Clauses have elves or is that like an American British thing?
[03:51] Well, so that's a good question. So
[03:54] Santa as we know it was
[03:57] Created by coke, right?
[04:00] The Koch brothers essentially, I mean like we there was like Kris Kringle and in the drug
[04:09] Coca-Cola like didn't they in the advertising campaign of the Coca-Cola bottle like create the
[04:16] vision that we have of Santa now like
[04:18] before there was a
[04:20] some sort of carpenter
[04:22] character that lived in Germany that made gifts for poor kids and like it was all
[04:29] Yeah, maybe maybe this is a wider question
[04:33] All this crap come from I my memory so winter solstice pagan stuff co-opted by the Christians
[04:39] I get all that but I don't know
[04:43] That elves are related to any of that
[04:46] It's just like a fun thing to throw in there. I mean
[04:50] Story right, I mean, you know, you can't just have one guy wandering around with like an inner monologue
[04:55] That's just like a crazy homeless guy talking to himself
[04:58] But he needs a character foil
[05:00] So it smells
[05:01] Am I right that Kris Kringle is German and he made?
[05:05] Wooden toys for homeless kids. Isn't that something?
[05:09] That sounds familiar ish but there was also like a st. Nicholas
[05:13] That's where I was getting the Nordic countries because I feel like they know he's a st. Nicholas that they don't they put out their shoes
[05:21] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay
[05:27] Dutch but you and also yes
[05:29] I mean that when you got Santa you gotta start asking some questions like, you know, if he's making all these toys
[05:34] Yeah, who's make who's making those toys? Okay, so basically it's down. It's it's like going down the rabbit hole
[05:40] You have to answer these questions. Yeah, some parent just like got stumped by their kid and was like, there's a bunch of elves
[05:49] It's like the the the adult who just kept engaging with the child when they said when they kept saying why
[05:56] Why why?
[05:58] Okay. Well, how how how long ago did this parent live then?
[06:02] Like when do we think elves come into play? I
[06:07] Just like that sentence happened. Yeah before Tolkien or after
[06:16] Pre-token when it's token tokens like the 40s right or something. Yeah, he's
[06:21] Yeah, he's it's the whole thing's an allegory for
[06:25] War
[06:27] One or two. I thought one one. Yeah one. Yeah, so it's in 20s. I think so like the 20s or 30s
[06:34] Yeah, 20s and 30s
[06:36] so and by then we've got
[06:39] You know the Santa that we know I mean because the coke thing would have been in the early 1900s as well
[06:45] the Santa we know
[06:48] Right. I mean, I think that the sort of pervasiveness of advertising to really take over an image though
[06:53] Isn't really available until television. Yeah, it's in the 50s. Probably I'm going I'm going they were painting coke boards and billboards in the 20s
[07:06] And that's that's where they just threw on some elves. No
[07:11] Okay, I'm just trying to get I'm just trying to get where we got the Santa we know today
[07:15] And before because we probably got that before we got the elves. That's what I'm trying to go with
[07:20] gotcha
[07:22] well, if the theory that yeah, it was a
[07:26] A rabbit hole, but maybe that good. I mean so Kringle didn't have elves Kringle was just so prolific
[07:33] At woodworking
[07:35] It itself. That's right. That's like there weren't no, but I think there was an actual
[07:40] Germans definitely would have been like this craftsmanship. I
[07:43] Went rushing there for a second. But uh, yeah, this craftsmanship is too good for one man. That's right. All right
[07:51] All right. Okay, so let's go
[07:54] So, let's give a time and a place. I like this thing that's Nordic and I want to go I want to go pre
[08:00] Pre Tolkien pre coke. I'm gonna go 1800s sometime in the 1800s. I
[08:08] Like it I'm gonna go yeah
[08:11] 1860s
[08:13] Okay, the world the world needed some magic in the 1860s
[08:17] because the thing is is the we learned the
[08:21] It was the night before Christmas was written by what's it said? See I learned a ton of stuff
[08:27] But like there are no elves in that story right and that's sort of the Christmas story we
[08:32] We think of he's just got reindeer in that one because he's from the North Pole
[08:37] Our elves elves. Yeah, but it's that's more like posts, you know elf
[08:46] Because the elves the thing about the elves
[08:49] We as humans never interact with them. We just know that they exist. Well now there's elves on shelves and things
[08:56] right, right
[08:57] Maybe that's definitely a new like yeah, that's that's in the last 10 years. Right? Yeah, so maybe the elves
[09:04] Maybe the oh, so when did we go to the North Pole?
[09:08] Mmm, did we see small people with pointy ears when we went to the North Pole? Well, no, but we definitely didn't see Santa or reindeer
[09:17] Yeah, who was the guy? Whoa?
[09:21] I want to say that I was like in this bird
[09:24] the
[09:25] Was bird and hands? Yeah, I think it was a it was Robert Frost, right?
[09:34] Okay, so Robert Frost bite I must say the cake one ease and so I'm gonna say that they
[09:41] Yeah, I mean at that point you kind of need a magical creature because now we have first-hand accounts of the North Pole
[09:47] Hmm
[09:48] Okay, where are the where the druids live? Is it cold there?
[09:52] I don't think druids were like in there. They were like like Northern European. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so it's cold. I
[10:01] Mean, it's not half the year right and that's their winter solstice celebration and they've got a there's you know, they've got
[10:09] pine trees for trees and all that stuff and they've
[10:13] They've got reindeer, right? They've all this stuff sort of comes that makes sense. I just don't know where the elves come from. All right guys
[10:23] What'd you get good news for you? Okay, right
[10:25] We're not bad at this. Oh, I assume we are
[10:31] So that is new elves elves
[10:36] Jason they do come from exit ancient north mythology. Yeah. Well done JT
[10:42] they
[10:45] They the son of Thor or something
[10:47] No, but they're seems like they maybe had battled with gods at some point, but the elves I guess are
[10:56] Like symbols of nature
[11:00] And they're like personification of the living landscape
[11:06] So the Scandinavians and the and the Celts
[11:10] Were into elves
[11:13] Then you've got and these were you know 500 AD these these kind of things we're talking about
[11:20] So we're not that good
[11:22] Well, no, that's just elves in general. Okay
[11:26] but somehow
[11:29] In the or in the 1800s at 1823 poem a visit from st. Nicholas
[11:35] I'm better known today as the night before Christmas. The poem refers to Santa Claus as a jolly old elf
[11:43] right, so that is
[11:46] 1823 was when that was written excellent point and then from there people started integrating that
[11:53] 19 enter 1857
[11:56] Harper's Weekly published a poem called the wonders of Santa Claus and that talks about how he keeps a great many elves at work
[12:04] Oh
[12:05] Working with their might to make all a bunch of stuff. So this wiki claims that Louisa May Alcott in 1856 first introduced
[12:14] The Christmas 50 and even seen yeah in an in a never published book entitled Christmas elves
[12:25] This says that pagans believed elves
[12:30] Guard their homes against evil
[12:33] If you were good, the elves would be good to you
[12:35] And if you were bad, they would play tricks on you sort of like a get presents or get coal sort of thing
[12:41] And that was around in the pagan times
[12:43] the pagan times
[12:45] That's what it says pagan times
[12:48] I'm not saying this is a legit website. I'm just saying it says pagan times
[12:52] Is that all in no times?
[12:55] Right
[12:59] Okay, yeah by
[13:01] 1891
[13:02] St. Nicholas had become so well known that he could no longer be ignored
[13:06] He became merged with Tomton, which was previously an elvish dwarfish farm guardian
[13:14] Yeah, so feels like I feel like maybe elves came before Santa Claus. It's like the reverse of what we thought
[13:20] It wasn't like an explanation of how Santa made all his toys
[13:25] Well Santa himself
[13:28] Yeah, I mean Santa Santa Claus is from some Dutch tradition in the 17th century or something, right?
[13:34] right
[13:36] But it sounds like these
[13:38] Pagan elves were giving you presents or or tricking you if you were good or bad
[13:46] And then if Santa is just a jolly old elf, he's one of those traditions
[13:52] Right, but he's sort of he's starting to look like he's just a jolly old elf
[13:55] So we started off as an elf or first we had elves then we forgot about the elves because they were again, right?
[14:01] We reintegrated it later. So it kind of did a 360 on us, right? That sounds right to me. Mm-hmm
[14:06] Cool. I think we nailed it
[14:11] sort of